kradeelav | (no subject)

my mom... bless her heart.

so she's generally cool, but every now and then she'll make a comment about how a family member draws so well, they're so talented that they need to monetize or publish their art, so on. (occasionally she'll make the same comment about my SFW work but i kinda deflect with the 'focusing on work these days') angle since she vaguely knows i split ways with the webcomics publisher due to being burnt out. (i get a similar comment a lot from other people, at least more back when i actually shared i drew a lot as a hobby; i don't tell people that these days. but i also get the feeling it's usually from people slightly insecure that they don't have a monetizable hobby and they fear they've missed the wave on said quick cash. thing is, it's a totally different landscape now.)

anyway, the comment's always slightly bothered me on my family member's behalf, but i want to be tactful in the response for several reasons, both pragmatic in an educational way and "don't be an ass" reasons. thankfully the other day i thought of the perfect response -

- that for some people, art-making is like fishing. (lot of folks down in these parts like to fish as a hobby). the end-result or money or kudos doesn't matter. the real enjoyment in solitude is the point. technically fishing as a skill-to-make-money can exist but it's seen far more as simply a fun hobby that retirees indulge in where you don't have to talk to people. and it's socially acceptable. (she loves to talk, so slightly leaning on the 'some people need their quiet time as a hobby hint hint' shtick also helped there.)

thankfully, when i mentioned that fishing metaphor to her, that seemed to genuinely connect the dots with her -- so. free rebuttal there, for the artists and creatives here, if you get that kind of comment?

anyway, interesting times in my life right now.

the biggest: there's some very, very early-phase life changes with moving to the next place for a decade+. (it's a cool space on paper, and fixes the last major ~quality of life~ issues i have with increasing the square footage of my current space, with no major drawbacks. it's a little isolated but that's fine by me; i kind of want to go in hermit mode / small town mode for the next while, minus some very close family and you usual mutuals I talk to here.)

also that Big work project back in early August that i was stressing about for several months went spectacularly well :D currently in a much-needed lull period with work.

lastly, looking at dedicated System76 servers for a christmas present since I'm getting the feeling I need to start educating myself on fully self hosting a variety of things. :v (bsky PDS, that pi-hole i always wanted to do, cloud backup for the laptop on top of my usual backup system, some secure chat apps, etc. need something slightly beefier than a raspi, you know? and i already trust system76's hardware almost implicitly.)

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queenlua

heh. i have a friend who's big on the "you have a hobby? well how can you be the best at it? how can you monetize it?" kind of deal. it doesn't bother me since we are SUCH different people that, like, we fully know there are some things she does that i would simply never ever ever do, and vice versa, but in her case it comes from a well-intentioned enough place that it's a little flattering. she really thrives on external validation (crushed the corporate ladder early in her career, then founded a startup which went bust in the end BUT she got support from lots of fancy external investors, is back in a normal job and crushing it again, etc), and for her, she derives a ton of her sense of accomplishment from that tangible sense of "i am getting Better At Thing in a way that is legible via Universally-Understood Signifiers (e.g. money)." so when she's like "bro you should be SELLING YOUR WRITING you should be OPTIMIZING FOR THE MARKET you should be making BANK," it comes from a good place; she's read my stuff and just really likes it and wants more people to agree with her! but yeah it'd be annoying if i felt pressured by her or insecure in any way, as it is i'm just like "yeah i'm flattered but if-and-when i do serious business publication it's probably going to be skrunky and inscrutable and weird, sooooorry" hahaha

congrats on the big work project :D

kradeelav

ahahaha that's a charming ancedote :D yeah some people really do thrive on that .... it's not *competitive* accomplishments per se, but they have to throw themselves after a goal and they feel positively refreshed with it.

there's room in the world for all of us, them and us artisanal skrunkly pornographers and all XD

halcyonstars

If I'm feeling glib, my response in the past was "sorry, I hate money" and if they kept pressing I'd just straight up be "I didn't ask, but thank you." my general approach to unasked opinions is to be a brick wall and to stress people out for trying to slam head first into it like I'd cave.

That said, in conversations where I actually want to persuade I just do two simple things:

1) I ask them what's something that brings them joy, and to tighten the noose I may ask why and to let them tell me a bit about what about it makes them so happy

2) once they state it, I say "now imagine the only way you can make rent is to do that and only that" and patiently watch as that sinks in

they usually try to get defensive and rationalize themselves out of it to make it seem like it doesn't count (oh it's not a real job, oh I'm not actually good at it) and every excuse they bring up I'm just "great, so imagine needing to do something you're not good at to make rent" or "great, imagine you can't get a 'real job' and that's all there is to make rent" etc etc. keep bringing it back to "this is all you can do to make money" and see them have to reconcile that joy can't be theirs or be relaxing.

haha sometimes the glib response is the best when the conversation would be pretty pointless.

that said I can *definitely* see the persuasion angle working for the people willing to entertain that thought experiment, and will have that in the back of mind if another artist is commiserating about this issue. :o great way to walk them through the crux of the issue.

yeah the general rules art discussions is:

1) people will, without fail, consider themselves the exception. exception to what? doesn't matter, they're the exception.

if it's the artist, they'll likely think of themselves as exceptionally inept because for some reason the default attitude rejects ownership over their own work. if it's a normie, they think of themselves as exceptional for rejecting or having disdain for art, because they have common sense you see, they care to practical realities like money and misery like an adult.

2) normies will always treat art as impersonal and do everything they can to separate art from the artist. they want the art but they have nothing but contempt for the people making said art. a lot of artists unfortunately internalize this as well.

3) normies will always see art as a social class or a clout game, never an activity. art is a transactional function in society for fame and respect -- ironically, never for trade or labor lol

being aware of all three things, my experience with making rebuttals to artists and normies alike for decades is to *always* find a way to make it viscerally personal as quickly as possible.

if it's the artist, it's to get them to acknowledge the connection to their own work, and usually that's starkly making them see they're placing a lot of time and effort and investment in an activity they want to pretend they're above or don't want to feel love or pride over.

for normies, it's to re-introduce real word stakes to something they consider a hobby for maladjusted children or outcasts, and that's to find the nearest equivalent. you'll never ever ever convince them of the value of art by arguing for the basis of art, but you can absolutely belittle what they already actively value and spend their time on. it may sound out there to say, but it's very similar to arguing with pro-lifers, antis or reactionary thinking -- they think every abortion, kink, or expressions is wrong except for their own, because it's different for them. So you have to erase that line and ask the questions: what makes what you like the exception? what makes you different?

if a normie refuses to cite a hobby then my back up is to always ask them what media or place they like to go to or the clothes they like to wear. and then I point out: someone had to design this. basically, that one scene from A Devil Wears Prada: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rDTRuCOs9g

it should be noted I don't ever argue expecting them to understand. I argue in the same way I debate all reactionary thinking: I want to make them feel shame and their own contempt, redirected back at them. you can literally only humiliate them into humility -- the people who achieve understanding will be genuinely humbled and reconsider, while the people who don't will remember they got their ass kicked and may hesitate to want a repeat.

amado1

I wonder if that would work on my mom -- she's constantly saying that to my brother, and it stresses him the fuck out! Any time he starts to get back into art as a hobby, she either says, "I'm glad to see you finally using your degree," or she pops up with some Great New Paid Art Opportunity that isn't actually in his sphere of interest and kills his fun. But I think the fact that he DOES have an art degree might make the "quiet time hobby" moot to her, like "OK well why did you pay for art school then?" >.>

oh gosh the art hobby negging is the woooooorst. halcyonstars in a sibling reply to this had some other great rebuttals that might work in a more firm context... wishing your bro best of luck in Not having those comments anymore.

karel

definitely know what you mean there. that monetization was a big point of contention between an ex and I - big hustle culture guy - and I spent some time trying to do it with my photography and painting at his insistence. learned that trying to market myself in that way, pivoting to producing work that was marketable, primarily... hoo, wow that was not for me. killed the drive for a good long while. that's a solid metaphor, thanks for sharing it, might be of use in the future!

good luck with the changes, the moving sounds exciting - a lot, god, moving is so hard, but still, it does indeed sound very cool! congrats on the work project, too!! you've been doing a ton, it sounds like, glad it's paying off, we LOVE a lull after a big thing!

and if you wind up wanting to share any of your server-related experiences, I'd sure be glad to read about 'em!

the marketing word really is the key difference, isn't it? totally different skillset (and *is* def a skillset unto itself) but mixing it with the kind of creative work that fuels us is a recipe for disaster. so sorry you had to go through that, but there's something to be said about knowing what to look for after the fact. (halcyonstars in a reply here has a great rebuttal or two back from a different angle too, for more food for thought.)

and aaaa thank you <3 it's been a different mountain of work to get into LOL but pretty enjoyable tbh. will definitely be posting the server shenanigans here too :)

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